Ask Larry Archives Page 7

Question from Robert McElhone

I didnt get to see many Wrestling at the Chase shows, because I live in KC, but have always heard great things about them. Do you know when you will have induction ceremonies for the Hall of Fame and where it would be held? I would be very interested in coming to the ceremonies. I am a very big wrestling fan from way back. Also, would there be chances to get autographs of the great stars who will be inducted? Please let me know, I am very excited about this happening. Thank you very much

Larry's Response:

Thanks for your interest in St. Louis wrestling, Robert, and especially for the St. Louis Wrestling Hall of Fame.  It is likely that the "open house" for the Hall will be in mid to late February and it will be announced on the website. 
 
The Hall will be located at the Pro Wrestling Shirt Shop at South County Mall in St. Louis.
Now - everyone - please understand this is a cozy corner of the shop's entire store; it's a good sized display but not a building.  There will be a nice display, plus plaques of those inducted along with items of interest to St. Louis fans.  With a little luck, some memorabilia will also be on display.  For instance, I loaned the ring bell used at Kiel Auditorium matches to the store.  So you can ring the actual bell we used for Kiel bouts if you wish -- until mall security goes crazy I imagine.  LOL 
 
Obviously, many of those to be inducted have passed away.  We will honor their memory.  Otherwise, since there is no income to the Hall, there is no way to pay for transportation and lodging to bring any old timers to the Hall at this point...although all are surely welcome to be there.  Things may evolve over time, but at this point the "open house" will be hosted by me, Mickey Garagiola, those who have helped build the idea (Keith Schildroth, Herb Simmons, Mitch Hartsey, and Nick Ridenour) and perhaps some local wrestling people (i.e. former referee Lee Warren or Bill Longson's grandson Bill Colt).  Rest assured, everyone wil be happy to sign autographs.
 
It will be a fun time and an interesting place to remember those who helped make St. Louis wrestling special. 

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Question from Jeff

I was just curious, did Betty Niccoli ever wrestle Jean Antone on Wrestling at the Chase?  I have met Betty in Kansas City where she lives now, and I forgot to ask her, she and Jean had some rough bouts.  I know Betty sometimes got mad at Jean and worked "stiff", and are there any tapes of them from the shows?  I know the tapes were destroyed or copied over, just thought there may be one laying around.  I saw a lot of Betty's matches at the Kiel when i was growing up!! 

Larry's Response:

Thanks for bringing up a lady that a lot of St. Louis fans will remember, Jeff.  Betty Niccoli was a terrific performer and a nice person.  She married another wrestler - Akio Sato - and as best I know they are still together.  You probably know the answer to that, Jeff, if you're from the KC area.  Let us know if you will!
 
Betty probably had more matches with Jean Antone than Thesz had with O'Connor.  Well, maybe not, but it was a lot.  Both were from the Midwest and often booked together.  And, I agree, they had some rough and tumble bouts so Betty's stories would be interesting indeed.
 
Unfortunately, I don't have any tapes of Betty from "Wrestling at the Chase."   Nor have I seen any, and that's a shame.  Betty's last St. Louis outings were in 1976.  I don't think she was as active after that, plus
most booking of girls wrestling came through The Fabulous Moolah by that time.  Folks should remember Betty, though, because she was an excellent performer.
 
On my records I show her beating Jean Antone on tv on Dec. 12, 1970 and lost to Antone on Feb. 7, 1976.
Betty's last TV bout was Feb. 29, 1976 when she and Sally Rivera won from Antone and Brenda Hoffman
as Betty won the only fall from Hoffman.  And I know Betty also was on TV back into the late 1960s.
 
Naturally, Betty was at Kiel Auditorium quite a bit and worked with the likes of Kay Noble, Cora Combs, Marie LaVerne, Marva Scott and naturally Antone.  Betty's  last St. Louis outing was April 9, 1976, when she beat Joyce Grable - another excellent worker.
 
Betty added a lot of excitement and quality to wrestling in St. Louis.

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Question from Michael St John

Have you ever considered rebroacasting any of the old Wrestling at the Chase show's on a weekly or monthly basis? I bet there would be a great interest in this, maybe along the same lines getting former wrestlers to talk about what is was like to wrestle in St. Louis and there memories of the the good old days. With the product that is out there now, it sure would be a welcome change. One other question when is the Brody book set to be released?

Larry's Response:

I'd love to do that as well, Mike, but the sad reality is most television stations/channels simply aren't into that.  They have a bad taste for wrestling, even though the ratings are always good.  The fact is getting advertising is difficult, even for WWE except for certain companies and even they don't pay the rate that ratings would indicate should be paid.  And newer programming people simply think all wrestling is like what is on today, failing to recognize there are different versions available.  Such as St. Louis and "Wrestling at the Chase." 
 
And even though WWE is starting its own 24/7 channel, all of their product is slanted heavily to old WWF and WWWF product.  Other areas who have sold tapes to them find the facts twisted and their product buried or even edited.  But you never know what could happen if the right person was in the right position at a tv station.
 
As to the Brody book, it should be out late April-early May.  I am doing editing now, along with Frank Goodish's widow Barbara.  Also, the pictures are being added now.  Thus, we are on the home stretch!     

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Question from Ted Czech

I don't necessarily have to have my question posted on your site -- I'll leave that up to you -- but if you do have a few minutes, if you could shoot me an e-mail back on this, I'd appreciate it. My question (s): In your 12/20/05 column, you mention that Lou Thesz defended the NWA title against Karl Gotch on 12/27/63. Is this when they first met? If not, then when and how? How did they get along? I would think they got along pretty well since they both were considered "shooters" and had a common enemy in Buddy Rogers and anyone like him who they would consider a "poser." Also, was it Karl who influenced Lou to wrestle in Japan? I know Karl trained many of the Japanese wrestlers in the shoot style, that Lou and Karl teamed up in a tag match in 1973, and I have also read that Nobuhiko Takada was a student of Lou's, so I was trying to pinpoint about when that happened and under what circumstances.

Larry's Response:

Ted, Lou Thesz and Karl Gotch were definitely two of the most legitimately tough and skilled ever inside the squared circle.  That St. Louis bout I mentioned was the omnly time they clashed here, though I would not be surprised if they met a time or two elsewhere.  I'd feel comfortable that they had mutual respect.  That night in 1963 I met Lou's father, Martin Thesz, for the first time and spent some time wirh him.  Remember, I was only 16 then...but I definitely remember Mr. Thesz saying, "Tonight, kid, you're going to see a REAL wrestling match between Lou and that boy Gotch."  I'll assume that Lou echoed his father's feelings.  As to Japan, Thesz was there long before.  He was headlining bouts in Japan and the Orient in the mid-1950s, which would be before Gotch went.  Just a thought...if you haven't read Hooker by Lou Thesz and Kit Bauman -- find a copy.  It's a terrific book with a different viewpoint on many things.  I might add...I have only two autographed pieces of memorabilia, having learned not to herro-worship at an early age.  One is an autographed picture to me from Sam....and one is that book from Lou to me.  Thesz was one of a kind. 

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 Question from Dan:

I was wondering who you would rate as the top 10 wrestlers in the 1970s on wrestling at the chase in order.  And secondly i wanted your opinion on who would have won these matches.
Bruno Sammartino vs Jack Brisco, Johnny Valentine vs Rufus R Jones, Dory Funk Jr. vs
Vern Gagne, Harley Race vs. Billy Robinson, Big Bill Miller vs Ron Fuller, Terry Funk vs Dory Funk Jr and David Von Erich vs Kerry Von Erich.   

Larry's response:

It's a tough questrion, Dan, to put an order on all the stars who graced "Wrestling at the Chase" in the 1970s.  And I'm going to do the politically correct thing -- duck the answer!
 
That's tongue-in-cheek, of course, but I honestly wouldn't feel right naming one over another for the entire decade.  We were blessed with so much talent in that time span that I doubt there were more than a few meaningful stars who didn't appear.  Since my background was in promotion and booking, I was actually trained by Sam Muchnick to balance all sorts of factors about each grappler.
 
For instance, certainly someone like Harley Race was a dominant figure in main events from the mid-70s into the 80s.  He held the NWA world title for a great portion of that time.  Yet Dory Funk, Jr. had a similar run that actually began in 1969.  Put them one against the other.  I don't know that I could name one as beter than the other.  At different times throughout the period, one probably was better but based on what standard?  Drawing power?  Actually wrestling ability, and by that I mean in pure wrestling?  Wrestling with rough and tumble thrown in?
 
I'll blame Sam for this, since we usually had this picture in our minds of anywhere from six to ten guys who could headline at any given time and provide a) drawing power and b) a great match.  The truth is my opinion is no more accurate or valuabvle than that of you or any other serious fan. 
 
But to put that big group together, I'd say name thoise who held the World Championship in the 70sa along with those who held the Missouri Championship and that's where you'd begin to figure out an order.  But don't forget smeone like, say, David Von Erich who started his ruyn in ther late 70s.
 
See what I mean, Dan?  It ain't easy!!! 
 
As o winners of the bouts you name, let me offer the folowing opinions..
 
Sammartino versus Brisco....classic powerhouse versus pure wrestler.  I like pure wrestlers, but lots of folk who saw Bruno in his prime would say baloney.
 
Valentine versus Jones....Valentine has long been one of tghe most underrrated, forgotten true tough guys in the history of wrestling.
 
Dory Jr. vs. Gagne....a lot would depend upon which time period each was coming from, but Gagne was a oure wrestler in the great mold of Brisco.
 
Race vs. Robinson....very interesting, both had reps as real tough guys.  Robinson had more scientific training.
 
Miller vs. Fuller....Fuller was fine athlete, but Miller (like Valentine) was not appreciated for his athleticism and toughness.  He played in the Rose Bowl for Ohio State where he also excelled as a grappler.
 
Funk vs. Funk and Von Erich vs. Von Erich.  We all know that Sam Muchnick would have NEVER put brother against brother no matter what it would draw!       

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Question from BK

I was wanting some information on Wrestling at the Chase.  I was mainly wanting to know when the show stopped being televised from The Chase Hotel and also what venues it used after that. 
 
Also,
 
How was the show formatted?  Was it mostly squash matches and interviews, or did it have competitive main events?

Larry's response:

BK, "Wrestling at the Chase" officially moved to the KPLR studios in the Chase Hotel complex in the early 70s.  It had become impossible to get the necessary dates at the Khorassan Room in the Chase.  That facility was booked solid Saturday and Sunday.  Thus, wrtestling could not get in until Monday eveniung.  But it was impossible to hold top talent over from Friday night at Kiel/Arena until Monday.  Plus, Monday night was also a date top guys could earn good money in bigger facilities.  As you probably noted in the book Wrestling at the Chase, pay for television was minimal and barely enough to cover hotel and living expenses if that.
 
Format wise, that era even in St. Louis generally had better wrestlers against lesser wrestlers.  But there were many "even" bouts and even in what would be considered lopsided matches, Sam Muchnick insisted
the underdogs put up a fight.  Many promotions in other cities expected the underdog to get his tale whipped in two minutes and do nothing.  Didn't work that way, generally, here.    

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Question from John Davidson

Larry, I was at the all in team match pitting Andre and Rocky Johnson agains Ric Flair and Dick Murdock who was a sub for King Kong Brody. I remember Flair pinned Johnson with a flying elbow drop and got the title shot against Race the following card. I also remember Brody was snowed and and Murdock had to sub. Did this mess up the intended bookings? Was Flair originally supposed to be the one who made the pin and got the title shot? Or was Brody supposed to have a "grudge match" a couple of cards later against Andre instead of Murdock? Also I remember that both Murdock and Brody appeared to have the upper hand in their matches with Andre that spring. Both lost by DQ. It seemed that the goal of their matches with Andre was to increase their drawing power. Did Sam ever consider having either Murdock and/or Brody put Andre over cleanly setting up a title shot for Andre? Given the size and reputation of Andre a clean loss would not have hurt either's drawing power and an Andre vs. Race title match would have been a sell out for sure. I can see it now: Andre gets the first fall with a Giant Splash. Race gets the second when Andre is DQ'd for accidentally tossing Race over the top rope. In the third fall, both men are counted out after they tumble over the top rope when Race attempts to lift Andre for a slam. Would have been something.

Larry's response:

That was a terrific night, John, so not surprised you remember it well.  My first thought is many people from the outside might have thought Brody just blew off the date for some reason.  But, no, he really was snowed in when the Dallas airport shut down.
 
But, no matter, because Flair was getting the pin and the title shot against Race on the next show.  I'mrying to recall if there would be the hint of trouble between Brody and Andre, but I don't recall that honestly.  The idea was to get Flair a big win with great names to set up the crack at Harley.  Keep in mind that Rocky Johnson had a strong history with Race, so Ric's victory was important.
 
Your points are well thought out as to Brody and Murdoch against Andre individually.  But the idea, as you suspected, was to give Brody and Murdoch a it of a boost for standing uo to Andre.  Part of the problem, of course, was that Andre was untouchable as far as doing a job so there was no way to ever even it out.  I guess in a perfect world taking the time to dicker with Vince McMahon, Sr. (who booked Andre) and Andre himself might have led to a "job" one time if Andre got it back.  And, much as I loved Dickie Murdoch, only Brody would have had a chance to get the victory because of Brody's status in Japan.  In the end, the DQ was the easy out unfortunately and still let fans have that image one-on-one...The Giant and Brody, The Giant and Murdoch.
 
I do know Sam and I talked about his thoughts on Andre against the champion.  Obviously, Andre was not going to be the champion because Sr. was not giving up booking rights to him.  Plus, as Sam said, booking Andre as cham,pion would have been a  nightmare.  And, from Sam's standpoint, there was no way he could be satisdfied with any finish on an Andre title match because it would have so patently easy to expect.  One thing on Brody-Murdoch, another with the champion.  He simply wasn't comfortable at all with the idea.
 
Paul Boesch did do it in Houston..I think maybe twice.  And it probably happened a few other times.  Of course, it was going to draw a house.  But I think the flawed finish, in Sam's mind, would just reinforce some people's ideas about wrestling and that was something he wanted to avoid in St. Louis.  

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Question from Brandon Smith

There's this constant question I still can't figure out about Ted DiBiase. He had a fabulous run up to 1981 with the Missouri Title. He also done a fantastic angle in Georgia with the piledriver incident with The Freebirds. Ted had  much more wrestling talent than Tommy Rich and Dusty Rhodes. My question is was that since Jim Crocket was NWA president from 1980 to 1982, and his "close" neighbors and promoters were from Florida and Georgia in the Southeast, did that prevent Ted from winning the NWA Title. I also heard that Ted didn't get along with a booker in Atlanta who was an NWA board member. Can you help me shed some light into this scenario. Your promotion made me believe that Ted was the future world champion by giving  Harley Race a big scare and defeating the other big stars. Thank You for your time.

Larry's response:

 

I honestly believe if the Sam Muchnick had continued to have influence in the National Wrestling Alliance, and the business would have lasted a few more years in the structure it had, that Ted DiBiase would likely have had a run as World Champion.  You actually are interpreting the situation pretty accurately I'd say.  Ric Flair was Jim Crockett's choice.  The Georgia office had a certain amount of turmoil, although I was not aware of any major "heat" on Ted from Atlanta.  Not saying it wasn't possible; I just didn't know of any.  Florida was likely a swing vote, though I don't think Ted was that strong there.  By that time, Sam had phased out of that type of decision.  However, I'd say he found Ted to be the type of solid, reliable citizen (think Dory Funk, Jr.) who would do well as champion since he was an excellent performer, good talker, respectable in away-from-wrestling situations, generous (maybe too much) about "selling" for others, and a good figure to play off of more bizarre characters.  The tools were there, but the timing and the politics were not.