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I noticed that when Kevin and David Von Erich first came to St. Louis they used a variety of cradles, giant splashes, and cross body blocks as finishers. While David used the claw and the sleeper in other towns he did not use them in St. Louis initially. David finally used the claw in a six man tag with Kevin and Fritz pinning Seigfried Stanke with it. Of course, we all remember what happened a few weeks later with Harley Race in the handicap match. A few months later, Kevin debuted his claw on Dick Murdock in a tag bout. David went on to add the sleeper to his St. Louis repertoire and Kevin the body scissors. Was the reason they only used "quick pin" moves in St. Louis was to appear as though they were developing and growing right in front of us. Or was Sam merely feeling out the crowd and its reaction to them before they were allowed to use what I would consider more "potent" finishing moves against more established stars. Kerry followed a similiar but faster pattern. In his debut, he pinned Gama Singh with a Jacknife and Cradle and later added a variety of power moves and of course the claw. I guess what I am asking is: Was this pattern of starting out with more basic finishers like cradles and splashes in the beginning part of a long term plan? Did Sam or the boys ever discuss this with you?

Terrific question, JD, and it reminds me how bright our audience was that fans picked up on what would often be "small" points in other places. Your description of how the Von Erich brothers displayed the "Iron Claw" invented by their father Fritz is right in the money. I honmestly don't recall any specific discussions about how or when to use the claw, so my gut instinct on this would be that it was Fritz's idea with the blessing of Sam. And Pat O'Connor was very smart in feeling the crowd, so I'm sure it is something that fit in for him as well. Generally, though, because of the close relationship and friendship Fritz had with Sam, it was almost always those two who guided the thinking about the boys. And probably Sam would agree with Fritz's thoughts. As John notes, it was an excellent way for Kevin, David, and Kerry to "develop" right in front of the fans. But consider this too -- using the claw early might have been too easy. In other words, they'd have gotten a quick, strong pop that was honestly based on their father's legacy in the town. While that was at play when each finally unveiled the claw (and it did mean more for David than it did for Kevin or Kerry), by then the next generation had earned respect from the fans because the boys were seen as true wrestlers. All in all, it was great psychology and I give credit to number one, Fritz, and number two, Sam, both of whom understood how it all worked. And let me add again...just seeing this question from JD is proof that our work educating our audience worked and that our St. Louis fans were very sharp indeed.

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I have to be honest. It's kind of nice to know my book is also in the library. It may reside there for years and only a few people read it...but at least, it is available and somebody, someday, will always have a chance to find it and read about a neat time in the lives of a lot of us. More to the point, Tom, I do recall George Abel wearing a neck brace and some blame being placed on Dick "the Bruiser." Keep in mind, I was probably only 17 or so years old at the time myself! My guess? Probably George had some neck problem, not involving wrestling, which led Sam and perhaps Bobby Bruns (then the booker) to work it in in some form to wrestling. "The Bruiser" was a wildman in those days and George saying that he was a "psycopath" was simply playing on the personality of a hot new star. I might add...at that time, Dick was probably a good deal more explosive and unpredictable as Sam often told me. Later, by 1982 certainly, age had calmed Dick a bit and robbed him of a lot of athleticism. Thus, he was more calculated. He and Sam, however, both knew when the right kind of explosion could steal the headlines and draw a sellout. I count myself fortunate to have seen that first hand working toward Dick's final big house with Ric Flair in 1982.

When Ted DiBiase lost the the Missouri Title to Jack Brisco in October 81, did Ted lose it because he was planning to leave St. Louis or was something else? Also, was Jack Brisco being used as a transitional champion until Ken Patera regained the belt? I again watched Brusier beating Patera in Sam's final card. The ending of that match still excites me because it brought flashbacks of childhood watching him in Chicago beating up Bobby Heenan, Ox Baker, and Ernie Ladd. To see him triumph BIG over Patera was an exciting moment. Especially in your great wrestling city. I cracked up laughing when he was chasing you and Mickey G. around. I'm sorry to hear that you actually hurt yourself one time when Dick threw you out of the ring. Thanks Larry! I also enjoy your DVD's.

Brandon, it is truly satisfying to hear that folks like yourself enjoyed the DVDs and the book. Means when I was having fun, someone else was too! As to the Missouri title, the thinking there was less long term than was applied to the National Wrestling Alliance crown. Ted DiBiase wasn't leaving as such, for Sam always felt we could reach out and get any wrestlers anywhere to headline St. Louis. Truthfully, in that case, I pushed for Jack Brisco because I knew that Jack was frustrated in how previous booking had used him in St. Louis. He feared he was just being booked to lose a main event and leave, which probably had some truth as Sam's day-to-day influence on the booking lessened. I seem to recall there was a bit of a squeeze on getting dates for Ted on television as well. Unfortunately, getting Jack to stay over for Sunday TV after a Friday house shot was also difficult. In other words, the logical step was the Missouri Champion got more TV and eventually jumped into a lucrative crack at the NWA crown. DiBiase had enjoyed that previously, the dates never quite fit for Brisco, and Ken Patera was the new guy on the block for that position. I guess more than anything it was an attempt to just find a new fit for guys we all respected tremendously. It did, in retrospect, look like a transition thing but there was some disagreement on booking being played out too. As to Dick "the Bruiser" dethroning Patera on Sam's farewell show -- well, Sam and Dick were tight, we really felt that would be a nice moment to honor Sam by Dick, it balanced the so-called heel (Ric Flair) beating the so-called baby face ("Dusty" Rhodes) in the other top bout, and finally -- as old as he was, we felt Dick still had some legs in drawing a couple big houses against Flair, which he did prove after beating Patera. And, Brandon, thanks for your concern and I did recover from being thrown out of the ring!!

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This kind of a two part question. Is there anybody that you would have liked to have seen booked into St. Louis that never appeared? For example, Ricky Steamboat? secondly, was there anyone that you would have liked to use more, but couldn't for any reason?

Chris...good questions. Actually, as to Ricky Steamboat, he was just gaining fire as a top attraction in the early 80s and I don't recall being ready for him just yet. We were overloaded with talent at the time. And Ricky was just blossoming into a singles attraction in the Carolinas. I'd guess if wrestling had stayed the same awhile longer, we would have had Styeambnoat in St. Louis by 1984 or so.

As to any one wrestler, I always liked Ray Stevens and really thought Don Muraco would have fit in during the mid 70s. But I didn't have the influence needed and, truthfully, understood the thought on someone like Stevens who would have had to come from San Francisco with high transportation costs. Plus, SF usually ran on Fridays and their dates when they needed Ray conflicted with St. Louis. It's not like we didn't have a handful of stars who were more convenient and could draw money.

I really wanted Nick Bockwinkel to get a push, as did Sam. Home town boy, great worker and talker. But when he became AWA champion that ended Nick's shot here. Why? There was only one champion that could be protected and built around. That was the NWA champion. So..no hard feelings, Nick stayed with Verne Gagne in the AWA. And St. Louis continued to do great business because, once again, we had loads of options.

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Thank you so much for your insightful answers to my questions. This one is kind of related to the one about masked wrestlers. I always had the impression that Sam thought of tag team matches either as fillers, a way to set up or continue a feud between two wrestlers (on opposite sides usually) or just as an attraction to generate a little interest (two heels vs two faces). But he didn’t seem to go for competitive tag teams such as those so prevalent in the Carolinas and the South (like the Assassins or the Scott Brothers). I remember one TV appearance by The Bavarian Boys, but I don’t think The Fabulous Kangaroos ever appeared here. I remember an item in the WRESTLING Newsletter stating that The Funks were claiming to be the World Team Champions and that Sam decried it as a “mythical” title that did not exist. If memory serves me right, The High Flyers were the first team to appear here with any kind of belts and they defended the AWA Tag Team Championship on a Kiel card.

So am I correct that Sam didn’t really see tag teams and tag matches as competitive in their own right? Did you agree with that assessment? As true old school, perhaps Sam thought one on one wrestling was the only “real” wrestling. Your thoughts?

Sorry, Bob, I misplaced your question, which knowing my lack of ability on the computer is not a surprise...but anyhow...

Sam would reference the tag team title as mythical simpoly because the National Wrestling Alliance NEVER sanctioned a tag team champion. Some promotions billed their tag teams as NWA champions, but that was all baloney. There was NEVER a National Wrestling Alliance tag team champion as sanctioned by the organization.

Generally, he was skeptical that tag teams in top would draw consistently. There was an occasional tag team main event (i.e. Funks versus Brisco & Kiniski, Andre & Bruiser or Brody or Johnson versus two big time heels) ) but obviously it was a very special situation made unique by the fact that it did not happen often. He also felt often some of the tag teams mentioned just tied together two decent prelim talents..but making them a team didn't make them main eventers in St. Louis, that they were still prelim guys!

The Scotts were here in 1960 and worked one Kiel card right under the main event, which was O'Conor defending the NWA title against Kiniski. But again, they could main event elsewhere and, keep in mind, St. Louius was booming with Sam's philosophy.

Al Costello of the Kangaroos did work prelims here in the early 70s and, what sticks in my mind best...the Bavarian Boys were on TV from the old Marigold shows in Chicago. Sam brought them to St. Louis and they had one memorable match. In 1965, the Bavarian Boys clashed with Dick "the Bruiser" and Fritz Von Erich -- who got into a brawl with each other, setting up a famous feud, while the Bavarian Boys first just watched and then had to help the referees break up Dick and Fritz!

Yes, Sam did bring in the High Flyers (Greg Gagne and Jim Brunzell) in high prelim spots a couple times to defend the AWA tag crown because Verne was in the process of buying into the St. Louis Wrestling Club. Thus, the reason they were in St. Louis - politics!

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Hi Masa...

I completely agree with you about Joyce Grable. She was a terrific performer, athletic and very smart. Last I heard Joyce was living in Georgia and her husband had been battling health problems. I was a fan of Joyce Grable, who was a class act in and out of the ring.

Here is the Kiel/Arena record for Joyce Grable.

4/9/76 - lost to Betty Niccoli

8/25/78 - beat Leilani Kai

1/5/79 - with Vicki Williams won from Kai and Suzette Ferreira

7/17/81 - with Wendi Richter won from Jill Fontaine and Carol Sommers

10/23/81 - beaty Kandi Maloy

1/1/82 - with Wendi Richter won from Sandy Partlow and Early Dawn

4/30/82 - with Wendi Richter lost to Sabrina and Princess Victoria

The team with Richter was outstanding (take a look at them on Volume 5 of Classic St. Louis Wrestling)...and often forgotten was out dynamic the Grable-Williams duo was as well.

Larry, I have really enjoyed the website and the videos. My question is, will there be a volume 13?

Gee, Richard, 13 is not a lucky number, you know! At this point there is no specific plan for a volume 13 though anything is, of course, possible. At the start, I never dreamed this many people would still have interest in St. Louis wrestling. So many of the "name" matches were included and I worry that the level of action on any more volumes might not be up to the level we've established. Plus, to be honest, there is a cost factor involved in digitizing and producting a volume. But...we'll see.

As to a shoot interview, I was "shooting" in the book. I guess more details or questions could come up, but I really tried to cover the most pertinent information in the book. Hopefully, the upcoming bipography of "King Kong" Brody/ aka Frank Goodish, will be just as detailed.

I suppose the key to a volume 13 or a shoot interview is simply how many people show interest in one or the other project.

Dick the Bruiser and Pat O'Connor were two of their era's top performers. In the late seventies, however, they were well beyond their prime, repetitious, and predictable. As a "season ticket" holder, I know that many fans were becoming impatient, although the box office may not have reflected this. The problem was aggravated, it seems to me, by Bruiser's almost 100% refusal to lose to or even to sell for other wrestlers, something O'Connor seemed willing to do. Can you shed some light on Sam's take on the situation and on Bruiser's and O'Connor's twilight years in general.

Very perceptive question, Don.

Pat O'Connor and Dick "the Bruiser" were two different sides of the same issue. O'Connor, of course, was a partner in the St. Louis Wrestling Club. He was also the booker throughout the 1970s into the early 80s. Without question, his athleticism had waned although even then, all of the guys in the ring knew that Pat was in fact a marvelous worker. Generally, he was wiling to put himself just below the main event and, as you said, more than generous in selling and "doing jobs" as needed.

Part of it was simply a payday. He got some pay for booking and working allowed Pat to pick up a few more bucks. Sam Muchnick did like and respect him, as I did too.
The general public did respect Pat, although I can see where his regular appearance would wear thin on our core fans. The decision, I'd say in retrospect, came down to business.

As to Dick, well....his athleticism sure was slipping as well. Amazingly enough, in some circumstances, Dick really did think he was selling although it did not look that way. He was very close to Sam, who had drawn many a huge crowd and lots of money with "The Bruiser" on top.

Sam's theory was that protecting a legend like Dick -- and he was a legend, let's face it! -- would still allow him to pop a house now and then. I guess the proof of it still was in June 1982 when he and Ric Flair nearly packed The Checkerdome (Arena). And don't forget in March of that year they also sold out Kiel! Dick was long past his prime, but in the right circumstance, with the right opponent, with careful use of television that did not overexpose, with the right angle, Dick could still pack the casual fan in. To them, it was like seeing Stan Musial take one last swing.

Once again, the regular fan could see the flaws. But the bottom line still was - and is - putting money in the box office. For all that was tarnished by age, Dick could still do it.

One of Sam's great skills was in protecting the icons of the business (Bruiser, Kiniski, Thesz, etc.). And Sam did have respect for their accomplishments over the years.

If they drew money on top, it did provide a chance for new folks underneath to either make it -- or fail. If Dick had bombed in a couple main events, rest assured Sam would have changed course. In the end, he was a businessman too.

Having said all that, though, the question is excellent, Don. Don't know if that's a totally satisfying answer, but I do believe it's how the boss - Sam Muchnick - looked at it.

Since you have had time to warm up to the questions I thought I'd chime in with mine. My question is "Why was Lou Thesz not (allowed) to show his wrestling ability in St. Louis after I think 1968-1969? Was Sam concerned that what happened to Tom Packs would happen to him? What I mean by that is Lou wound up owning Tom Packs operation in the end. Or, did Sam care more about Lou and keep him young in the eyes of St. Louis and his fans here? I can remember seeing Lou as a Special Refferee, but would have rather seen him Wrestle. Of course I now know that Lou was active elsewhere through the 70's, but it would have been nice to see him on WATC/Arena also. Thanks for the book it took me about 3 hours to read it, I could not put it down!

Larry, those are good questions about Lou Thesz and go to the heart of the friendship/relationship between Lou and Sam Muchnick. I saw the two together often and they truily did enjoy and respect each other. Yet Sam felt that Lou's independent streak kept him from being named the National Wrestling Alliance president - at least as a front man for public relations purposes. Lou, of couse, would not have done that unless he had the power that Sam had. And Sam expected to retain that power whether or not he was technically listed as the president.

I remember Sam once telling me how "stubborn and independent Lou could be." On one hand, Sam admired it. On the other hand, it bothered him too. Like all good relations, this one too was complicated.

Lou did indeed wrestle after his last appearance in St. Louis, but I do think you are correct that Sam wanted to leave this impression of Lou as a Hall of Fame wrestler in everyone's eyes. Likewise, to use Lou as he ahd once been would have required putting him into [positions of going for the title again and Lou himself did not want to be the champion any more -- if in fact the powers that be would have agreed to it. The truth was age is always the winner -- even for Lou Thesz.

Actually, I never did sense that Lou pushed to wrestle again in St., Louis. So perhaps Lou's pride was involved as well. Psat O'Connor was a great wrestler who accepted being below main events and working in tag bouts and "doing the job" once in awhile. I doubt Lou would have settled for that role.

I guess my point about Lou wrestling was that -- especially in his hometown -- he did not want to be less than what he had always been.

As to Sam feeling he could be pushed out as a promoter, I know he knew wrestling had its nasty edges in business and he was always aware of keeping his position strong in St. Louis. He never would have expected to be challenged, and I guess I'd refer you to his questions about Vince McMahon, Jr. after Sam had retired that I talk about in the book "Wrestling at the Chase."

Great question and thanks.

Mr. Matysik, when King Kong Brody first arrived in St. Louis, he used the Boston Crab exclusively as his finisher. Then I went to a match with him facing Bobby Duncum and he debuted his Flying Knee Drop as he went on to pin Duncum. From then on , that was his exclusive finisher. Were you close enough to him at this point that he ever discussed switching finishers with you? I was wondering who suggested to him to switch from the Boston Crab.

In fact, John, it was like the Boston crab never existed after a couple of early television outings! Indeed, "King Kong" Brody did use the Boston crab at first and it looked good for a couple of reasons. First, Brody was very flexible and could get down low on top of his opponent. It looked punishing. Second, Brody could throw his long hair back and make some pretty impressive faces at the television camera while he used the crab. Probably, Brody had the sense that Sam Muchnick would prefer a wrestling hold to finish a match with, but once he got to know Sam, then realized that his impressive flying knee drop had perhaps more visual impact. I would say that, generally speaking, which finish for clean wins would be up to the wrestler. Especially in that era, the main question from a booker was "how long" when it came to the decisive telecvision "squashes." The performer could pick what he felt he did best, as long as it didn't duplicate what an established wrestler used. A finish between main eventers required a bit more planning due to the back and forth of false finishes. Thus, I'd say Brody simply wanted to please Sam Muchnick and was flexible in what way to achieve that goal.