'Ask Larry' archives 3

I would to if possible see an article or photos of the NWA title vs. WWF title matches between bob backlund and harley race. Also likewise on the legendary feud between Dory Funk Jr. and Jack Brisco. Also after hearing Larry talking about the "donnybrook" between Harley Race and Johnny Valentine, made very interested in seeing more material on their feud as well. Thank You for your time!

Larry your book, website and videos stir such great memories. A friend and I were talking recently about Greg Valentine and I remembered his St. Louis debut very well because of a bizarre incident involving his billing. In the WRESTLING newsletter it was announced that “Johnny Valentine Jr.” would be appearing on the next card. I was there and sure enough he was introduced as such. Then after the card it was announced that Johnny Jr was really Greg Valentine, Johnny’s brother and that a mistake in communication had occurred. There was even a quote from Greg in the next newsletter saying “Maybe I should start calling Johnny ‘Pops’. He’d love that!” Not that many years later, Greg appeared and was billed as Johnny’s son, which he of course is, with no mention of the earlier incident. Can you offer some insight as to what happened? I’m sure Sam knew who was who all along, so why the “brother” story? Was Johnny afraid that having a son old enough to wrestle would somehow make him appear “old” in the eyes of the fans? He never appeared old to me!

Have you maintained all your copies of the wonderful WRESTLING Newsletter? What a collection of history those represent. Unfortunately I lost all of my collection in a flood several years ago, but my friend Ron Howard was kind enough to give me several duplicates he had from the 70s.

As usual from a serious fan, Bob, you are right on the money when it comes to Greg and Johnny Valentine. Honestly, I was really surprised when Sam told me to note Greg as Johnny's brother. Of course, it is correct that Johnny had a good-sized ego and didn't want fans thinking he was old enough to have a son. That's worth a chuckle today, naturally, and even then, he had been headlining in St. Louis since the mid-50s. But Johnny had been a major star for Sam, and I suppose Sam felt he owed Johnny something. And, as you said, when Greg came back a couple years later we just went on with Greg as Johnny's son like it never happened.

Bluntly, shame on us and shame on Sam. It was a rare case of slipping into that old style wrestling-carnival mode, even iuf it was to protect Johnny's ego, and something Sam seldom did. Guess it just proves he was human.

As to the Wrestling news, I have all the copies from when I began writing the pamphlet in 1970. The only other complete sets back to 1945 that I am aware of are with Sam's son Dick and daughter

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for your thoughts and, especially, for the great question. Sometimes the simple stuff gets overlooked when an obvious question is there, like this.

Actually, Kiel Auditotirum was air-conditioned, though at times it certainly didn't feel that way. I remember Sam always wanted to be sure that, during the summer, Kiel was referred to as "air-conditioned Kikel Auditorium." LOL On the other hand, The Arena was NOT air-conditioned until well into the 70s.

The main reason there were no St. Louis Kiel cards during July until 1977 was that Sam wanted the summer off. It was his vacation time, and he'd also travel more for the National Wrestling Alliance. Plus--one big extra factor. He was a baseball guy and believed in the season concept. By making a season from August thru June, it also allowed from a promotional standpoint to have a "big season-ending" and a "big season-opening" bill in June and August respectively.

The out of town tapes were chosen for a few reasons. One, Kansas City was a partner in the St. Louis Wrestling Club and much of their talent worked prelims here. Second, there might be a couple pieces of new talent that could be exposed by picking, say, Florida or Carolina. Third, it was a "perk" of sorts for NWA promoters to have one of their programs on the air in St. Louis, the capital of the business.

Unknown to most, though, was another typically sly reason from Sam. He wanted his audience to see that the production and matches were not equal in quality to what was normally on the air from St. Louis!

The July show eventually got added because we wanted a stronger summer set for "Wrestling at the Chase." Rather than have a taping sitting all by itself and being weak because it was costly to fly in talent just for television, if we broke even or made money on a Kiel card, some big names would already be in town and could be used on television the Sunday after a Friday Kiel date.

By the way, here is the lineup from the first July show at Kiel...

July 15, 1977 attendance 5296 (another reason Sam hesitated on summer cards; crowds never were good but enough to make a few bucks)

Co-Feature: Missouri State Champion Jack Brisco beat Bulldog Bob Brown with a sunset flip 10:02. Pat O'Connor, special referee.

Co-Feature: Dory Funk Jr. beat Bobby Duncum with the spinning toehold 18:41

Wilbur Snyder and Rufus R. Jones won from Ray Stevens and Jim Valiant when Rufus pinned Valiant with a head butt 19:10.

Black Angus won a 12-man Battle Royal 9:00. Order eliminated - Denny Alberts, Bennie Ramirez, Ronie Etchison, Don Wayt, Buck Robley, Bob Geigel, Bob Sweetan, Bobby Jaggers,Ron Starr, Ivan Koloff, Randy Tyler

Ivan Koloff and Black Angus went to a draw 15:00

Bob Sweetan beat Denny Alberts with a knee drop 8:32.

Ron Starr beat Bennie Ramirez with the side suplex 8:31.

Hardly a stellar lineup with all of the KC roster and weak main events...plus only Dory Jr. held over the TV tapings! Over the years, with a few booking arguments, the quality did improve.

I just located your website. It is packed full of fantastic information. Speaking of fantastic, your book was such a wonderful trip down memory lane. I waited patiently from March (when I first thought the book was to be released) until August when I got my copy on the day of its release. And speaking of memories, I got all 12 DVD’s for Christmas! I am on volume 5. I have been searching for Wrestling at the Chase information/videos over the last 5 – 10 years having sent several emails to KPLR and never getting a response. I do have your 1 hour special on KPLR which I believe aired around 1999- 2000 on video tape. Anyway, my brother and I grew up watching Wrestling at the Chase in the 70’s. It was (as I am sure it was for many) our Sunday morning ritual after Church @ 11:00 even during the years when we had already watched it on Saturday night. Such wonderful boyhood memories (except for the figure four leg lock my brother would regularly apply on me). I was able to go to a Kiel show once in about 1979. I was around 9 or 10 years old and I remember it well. The dark, crowded Kiel set such a fitting backdrop for this type of event. I am not sure if it was the main event or not, but what I remember most vividly was my first glimpse of Andre the Giant. As he walked out of the dressing room and down what seemed to be a mile aisle towards us, I sat between my Dad and brother terrified, trembling and yet excited at the spectical. Andre’s head and neck towered above all those around him. It was truly an unbelievable experience and as I reflect back now as an adult, the event was one of those few times when reality actually lived up to my imagination, anticipation and expectations. Andre was really as big and really as scary as I had imagined in countless boyhood dreams!

That leads me to my first question. Why didn’t Andre ever appear on Wrestling at the Chase? I remember you would show clips of him from other venues, but Andre was never on the show. I have always wondered why since he was at the Kiel so often. (However, not seeing him on the show may have fueled my imagination and enhanced my Kiel experience!)

My second question concerns Terry Funk and Harley Race. My first memories of the show where when Terry was the champion. He soon became my favorite. I still remember the show that announced he had lost the belt (in Canada, I believe). You had video of the match (or at least part of it) on the show. I believe Harley won the match by submission using the Indian death lock. It was a figure four type of hold which I don’t remember anyone else using. Is my memory correct about this match? I was about 7 years old at the time. Do you have this tape/show in your archives? If so I would love to see it in a future volume release of Wrestling at the Chase.

My final question (at least for now) is about the last show. Did you know it was the last show when you taped it? Who was on the show? I seem to only remember one day turning on Wrestling at the Chase and seeing Texas wrestling. Terry Gordy, IceMan King Parsons and others come to mind. But I do not remember you ever signing off. I know from your book about some of what happened with you after 1983. However, I am interested on what transpired during the final taping of the last show at the KPLR studio.

Well, I won’t take anymore of your time. I am so pleased with the book, DVD’s and this website. I hope the DVD’s keep coming. Thank you so much for your time.

One last note: At my one and only Kiel show back in 1979, I was only able to acquire one wrestling autograph that night. Despite trailing several Wrestlers outside the ring with my program and pen, my timid behavior did not allow me to compete with the older, more aggressive fans. Who was the one autograph I did manage to get? Larry Matysik! Sneaking up behind you after the final bell, I tugged on your sport coat. To shy to talk, I held out my program and pen. You smiled and kindly signed. What a night for a young boy! What great memories!

First of all i want to thank you for writing your book about st. louis wrestling and especially about the late great sam muchnick who was by far in my mind the greatest wrestling promoter of all time.

My question for you is do you know anyway i can obtain the bi-laws of the National Wrestling Alliance that sam created. I have looked and contacted some people but i have not been able to obtain them. If you has them or knew someone who did i would be very grateful.

I have another question. As i read your book i wondered if you ever went to the NWA meetings in sam? Or was it only the bookers like bob burns and pat o connor?

And also do you know where i can obtain the member roster of the National Wrestling Alliance from 1948 to 1985?

I heard you are going to be writing a book about bruiser brody i was wondering when it will be for sale.

If you could help me in anyway it would be great.

In the mid-60s, was there not a wrestler who went by the name, “The Crusher”? (Not Crusher Blackwell). As a youngster I remember him in a villain type role, and always a great interview after his match, usually with a frosty cold one, in his hand.

Mark, that wrestler would be one Reggie Lisowski, better known as "The Crusher." He had a nice run in St. Louis in the mid-60s (losing in main events to Lou Thesz and Wilbur Snyder), though he never hit the peak as he did in towns like Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Chicago, Winnipeg, and Denver. In many cities, he teamed with his supposed cousin Dick "the Bruiser." But "The Crusher" was more character than all-out athlete, a terrific showman and tough guy and best suited actually as a babyface. He never really clicked big in St. Louis, partially because "The Bruiser" was here first and over like a million bucks. "The Crusher," in St. Louis, looked a bit like a copy with a bit more comedy thrown in. Keep in mind, Dick "the Bruiser" in his prime was a monster who had played pro football and was a terrific athlete. Dick inspired pure fear. By 1980, obviously, Dick got by on his smarts and his reputation. "The Crusher" was solid, but not everyone was a big star everywhere in those days...and for "The Crusher," while he was okay in main events, he was not a star in St. Louis. The chemistry just wasn't there. Unfortunately, Reggie Lisowski just recently passed away and really got some great nostalgic press in his key towns, most notably Milwaukee where he made his home.

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Larry, I don’t remember a date or even an exact year but I distinctly remember The Destroyer (Dick Beyer) making one TV appearance on “Wrestling at The Chase”. I remember being excited when George Abel announced the appearance because I had read so much about The Destroyer who was huge in California and Japan as well as the AWA where he was known as Doctor X.. However,he made the one appearance, squashed his opponent, and was never seen again in St. Louis.

In thinking back over St. Louis history, all the masked wrestlers I remember were just temporary gimmicks leading up to the eventual unmasking after several matches. My question is this—Did Sam Muchnick have an aversion to masked wrestlers who were more “permanent” in their guise? I remember Johnny Walker and Tim Woods being here in the early 60s, but after they became Mr.Wrestling I and II they never appeared in their masks.

As I write this, I realize this is more in keeping with Mr. Muchnick’s booking style in making wrestling as legitimate as possible. So I guess the real question is why The Destroyer appeared in the first place and then was never used again.

The sense I get is that Sam was willing to bend a little and try things that went against his grain. But he usually came back to his traditional promoting style. Would you say that’s a true statement?

Enjoyed the details on your history with St. Louis wrestling and, wow, did you bring back some memories. It was a helluva era, wasn't it??

As to masks, I don't have the date off the top of my head but check the website in questions, as Steve Yohe asked about The Destroyer and I was able to find the match both of you asked about. It was actually a draw with Angelo Poffo. Sam liked Dick personally, gave him a shot to see what reaction was, but nothing happened to change his philosophy.

You're right that Sam would never even consider using someone who did not unmask when he lost. He did use Torbellino Blanco once in a prelim, but that was it. To Sam, that was the only point of having a mask. Actually, he thought masks were just covers for guys who were mainly prelim wrestlers, which honestly is what he thought of Johnny Walker as. The mask was to either 1) make a point, a star hiding underneath to get a main event or certain match, i.e. Bill Watts or 2) make a youngster bigger when he removed the mask, i.e. Dick Murdoch.

Nope, he wasn't a masked guy. I remember he once told me do you think the Cardinals would be allowed to have Bob Gibson pitch with a mask so nobody knew who he was??!! LOL

Hope your family also has a terrific holiday season and glad to know a few os us folks are still around.

Thanks, Jack, for a chance to look back a little at the guys behind the mic on "Wrestling at the Chase." Joe Garagiola, as you said, was the original announcer from 1959 into 1963.

Don Cunningham was the fellow who finished 1963 and George Abel took over in 1964. George was solid through the fall of 1972. I started as his "color" man beginning on Feb. 12, 1972. Sam Menacker took over play-by-play with me doing "color" in the fall of 1972. And Menacker was gone by Oct. 13, 1973, when I started doing play-by-play until 1983 when I left as the promotion and the NWA began to splinter badly.

The only other ring announcer from 1959 thru 1983, beside Mickey Garagiola and John Curley, was Eddie Gromacki. John Baker, aso our director at Channel 11 at the time, did the honors for a few shows at Kiel in 1982 and 1983 as I became more deeply involved in the booking and had to be in the dressing room more.

And, finally, as to referees...how about these names: "Babe" Martin, John Turner, Charles Venator, Walter McMillan, George O'Brien, Henry Costa, Finis Hall, Walter McMillan, and, of course, Joe Schoenbeger from the early days. The likes of Lee and Ed Warren, Eddie Smith, Johnny Ramirez, and Chuck Riley came along during the 70s into 1980.

Hope you like the book, Jack, and thanks.

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Do you think by bringing back the territory system would prolong wrestling's future? After the mid 80's gimmicks and 90's "attitude" era, the WWE seems hollow and running out of steam. By bringing back the local TV programming, one would think that it could appeal to the masses in New York, Chicago, St. Louis, Atlanta, Portland, Dallas, Atlanta, Florida, Mid Atlantic, Mid South and so on. Thus by individually promoting each territory across the country, and around the world, under the WWE, Vince would still have a successful promotion in the future. Now with that being mentioned, would Vince allow his company to expand across the country and become a checks and balance system like the NWA. Or do you think he wouldn't because of what he did by acquiring the top talent and thus killing most of the territories of the NWA? He probably can't trust no one or no one can trust him. Thank You for your time! Merry Christmas!

The idea has tremendous intrigue, but the world has changed so much in the past twenty years. Independent television stations have little audience in most towns, which immediately puts anything meaningful on cable and in competition with 300 other channels. Each would require a separate television show. Indidivual markets would also have to make enough money to support local talent and promoters, a difficult task with a national promotion on pay-per-view. Add to this the fact there are nowhere near enough wrestlers today to fill all the venues, especially ones that are drawing cards.Let's face it - Vince Jr. and his company are worth many millions of dollars. They have been successful. To go back to do more work -- much more work, in fact! -- with the probability of less income isn't going to happen. The NWA was titanic in its prime, but the tides of changes in television and cable make its rebirth virtually impossible. It would take a monumental effort to build a territory style system ever again and the odds are highly against it being successful.

But we can dream! And remember! Thanks for your thoughts and ideas, Brandon, and a happy holiday season to you and yours

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Larry, it is so exciting to be able to ask you questions and gain from your knowledge of St. Louis wrestling.

I have often wondered why Bob Backlund never wore the NWA belt. It would seem to me that he was just the kind of wrestler Sam Muchnick would have liked to keep the credibility of the championship, considering his Brisco-like amateur background and his popularity. He certainly wore the Missouri belt well. Was it ever considered? It’s hard for me to believe it was Bob’s choice, considering he tied himself up with the WWF championship for several years.